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Topic: Horn/scur removal options  (Read 5156 times)
Pacqio
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 06:37:33 AM »

Sorry I havent read through this entire thread, I've gotta get out and feed my bottle babies, but I thought I'd add my experience at removing horns from mature goats (does, havent done a buck yet thank goodness)

I have had to do this a number of times (for friends, not in my own herd) when a doe has broken a horn through fighting or getting it stuck somewhere, but it hasnt broken completely off. In this case there is a lot of blood and pain, and I watch them to see if it is going to heal by itself. But most of the time, then animal keeps bumping it, and re-breaking it - it is just soooo painful for them the best thing to do is take the horn off.

I sedate the goat with rompun (xylazine) just enough to make her woozy but still standing; not too much as I dont want to knock her out completely. I then use embryotome wire to remove the horn; this cauterises as it cuts, so there is much less blood. There is still quite a bit though, and it is good to have bloodstop powder or similar on hand. Removing the horn requires an assistant to hold the goat's head still, as well as hold the broken horn so that the cut is clean. I spray the wound with fly repellent and antiseptic but leave it uncovered. Generally the goat is on its feet and recovered from the sedative within 10 - 15 mins after finishing; a total of roughly 30 mins all up from first administering the sedative, to when she is recovered. The pain relief is instant and the goat generally feels a lot better very quickly. The horn will continue to grow but obviously will be shorter than the other one.
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Sally P
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Posts: 8938


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 08:51:39 AM »

We have used the surgical wir4e (actually got a backpacking wire saw) to remove a scur and it worked just fine.  You are right--it takes two people, and we DON'T use any sedative.  We just put the buck on the milk stand and went at it. 
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dragonlair
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Posts: 8153



« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 08:57:53 AM »

My last doeling born was late being disbudded because I don't have a disbudding box (I will next year) and I didn't have anyone to help hold her. She already had little horns showing through. I want to keep her, as her mom is my best doe, but if she has horns she goes no matter who her mom is.

So, at 3 weeks of age I used a calf disbudding tip and disbudded her like I would any other kid. I got the copper ring, but the little horn was standing up in the center.

The disbudding worked, and the little horns fell off about a month later (just this past week in fact) Her head doesn't look any different right now than her 1/2 sister who was done right on time, before they erupted.

So, there is a chance the little buckling might be fine. While bucks are harder to disbud, there is hope that the procedure worked like it did for my doe.
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DragonLair Farm and Kennel in Central Maine with Nubians, Lamanchas and Oberhasli. Of course, combinations of 2 or more breeds happens also.
Pacqio
Guest
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 07:20:31 PM »

Sally, I have never removed a scur so I might be wrong, but from what I understand scurs arent as solidly attached? Is there as much pain and bleeding, when removing a scur with the embryotome wire, as removing an actual horn?

Just because, I couldnt imagine doing a horn without the sedative. But then again I didnt have a milk stand to do those does so that would help
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imalilbirdie
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Southern Louisiana


« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 07:40:59 PM »

I would never, EVER do a horn without sedation.  You don't have to sedate them all the way to sleep, just relax them.  Gee whizzers that's a horrible painful thing to put one through without something to take the pain edge off.  After watching Tadpole out here having that buck break his horn, he was in awful pain, and quivering all over including his eyes..why anyone would do this without sedation, is beyond me. 
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~ Birdie ~
Sally P
Goat Genius
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Posts: 8938


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 07:43:34 PM »

Some scurs can be as firmly attached as a horn would be.  Others are somewhat loose and the goats (especially the boys) are very apt to knock them off when head butting or just playing.  
Scurs can bleed as much if not more than a horn would.  The real trick is to not take the scur down so far that you have a large amount of bleeding---it just isn't necessary.
If I had a goat with horns---there is no way that I would remove those horns.  Too traumatic for both the goat and the remover!!! Wink
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Sally P
Goat Genius
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Posts: 8938


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 07:46:03 PM »

I can tell you why I wouldn't put any sedative in a goat that I was removing a scur from----the sedative is worse for the goat and believe it or not---unless you are going down too far clase to the head---it isn't painful.  It's like cutting your fingernail.  If they have pain--then you are down into the "live" part of the horn---and I wouldn't go that far down.
Any scurs we remove are either going into their heads or close to an eye.  Otherwise we leave the scurs alone.
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imalilbirdie
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Southern Louisiana


« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 07:55:47 PM »

Now Sally..you saw the pictures of Tadpole when this happened to him, and that horn was broken half way off, and not down to the head at all..It bled out horribly bad and he was in a great amount of pain.  So yes, it does hurt them, even taking half off.
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~ Birdie ~
Sally P
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Posts: 8938


New Sharon, Maine


« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2009, 07:59:27 PM »

That's the difference between horn and scur.  You can liken a scur to a hangnail. 
But I can tell you that we've cut scurs back and had the goat keep it's head right in the feed dish with no sign of stress.
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Pacqio
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« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2009, 09:02:47 PM »

Ah, I see  Wink The horns I am talking about, were taken off at the base, flush with the head.

I have used Rompun/Xylazine extensively and found it to be a very safe sedative for use in goats. The majority of the time I do not put them under entirely, that is a different story.

I only have one doe with a scur and she knocks it off herself every few weeks with very little bleeding. I have also tipped horns and found that once you go past a centimeter or so, it starts to bleed, and when there is blood there is pain.

I only remove mature horns when necessary to due breaks ... wouldnt want to do it just for cosmetics sake or other similar reasons ...
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pearplum
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The Lincolnshire Fens. England.


« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 02:24:17 AM »


  Sometimes if a horns are not to dark and the goat is in strong sunlight you can see where the blood supply comes to and from that you can tell how far down would be safe to take off without pain/bleeding. Just like when you cut a dog's nail and only the bottom third or so is safe to cut. If the horns are very dense and dark you would just have to always err on the side of safety and just remove a very small bit.

  Personally, after having it done by our vet just once many years ago. I would NEVER remove the horns from a mature goat. It's all just too stressful and painful and, with the sinus cavity exposed as it is, there's too much risk of infection. Not to mention flies.
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imalilbirdie
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Posts: 17471


Southern Louisiana


« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 03:52:25 AM »

I have used Rompun/Xylazine extensively and found it to be a very safe sedative for use in goats. The majority of the time I do not put them under entirely, that is a different story.

I just have one question for you Pacqio.  How is it that you're able to get a hold of all these drugs that you mention in many of your posts, that you say you use in your country, when our other two Austrailan members can't even get antibiotics over there.  Not to say that I'm disagreeing with what you say, I totally agree that sedation should be used.  But, it's odd how you can get so many drugs over there, that our other members can't get.  How you get these, would be good information to pass onto them. 

I shipped a bag of All Natural Fastrack to Austraila for one of our members here in GB and it took a Month for Customs to allow her to have it.  I know it's really hard to get your hands on chemical drugs over there.  Seems odd that you can get it and they can't.  Wondering what your secret is, so that this will help them too.
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~ Birdie ~
Pacqio
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 04:55:56 AM »

I have a good working relationship with my vet, birdie, and that is crucial for anyone who has animals. My vet is not a goat specialist but they specialise in production animals, and are very willing to have a go and do their best with my goats. They encourage me to do my own vetting and will speak with me on the phone regarding the animals, and we bounce ideas off each other regarding treatments. They will dispense meds for me without seeing the animals. I also bring harder cases/surgery cases to them and they do a fantastic job.

If the other two Australian members cannot even get antibiotics from their vets, I'd suggest they contact them with a little more force and information, or change vets. There are two antibiotics which will cover most problems for goats, they are TetraVet Flexi Dose (oxytetracycline) which is broad spectrum for just about everything, excellent stuff, the dose rate is 1ml/10kg given daily. The other antibiotic is Triprim or the stronger version is Trisoprim, which is trimethoprim and sulfadiazine. I'd have to check the dose rate on that one as I do not know it off the top of my head, but it is narrow spectrum for gut problems. Between these two antibiotics you will cover just about every infection. The third antibiotic I have here is Terramycin Pinkeye powder, now the other two are prescription only from the vet, but Terramycin is over the counter from any farm, stock feed store, Elders/Landmark etc. Also available at vets. I've used the pinkeye powder as dusting antibiotic on wounds as well.

If the Australian members want to PM me, I am happy to give them the phone number of my vet who dispenses the Tetra Vet and Triprim for use in goats, perhaps their vet can call my vet and confirm that these antibiotics are safe for use in goats, it might convince their vet to give it to them.

Rompun/Xylazine is a little more difficult to get, they dont hand that out very often and it is prescription only. However, I have a goat AI license (cervical/transcervical) and Rompun/Xylazine is used to sedate does for AI which is why I am able to get it - funnily enough, I prefer to AI them without the sedative, but I use the sedative for other reasons - removing broken horns, cut-throat caesars, removing the urethral process for urinary calculi etc.

There are a number of other drugs that my vet will dispense less regularly for my goats - a pain relief injectable that I cant remember the name of (brain fart), I have a doe currently on daily bute - but if you use that you are NEVER to slaughter the animal for meat. Few other bits and pieces too.

I'm off to feed babies
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imalilbirdie
Herdmasters
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Posts: 17471


Southern Louisiana


« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 05:23:04 AM »

Your sedative that you use, is a controlled substance here in the states and can not be administered except by a Licensed Vet.  The vet must be present to administer that drug in the States.  As strict as your rules are in Aussie, It's amazing that you are allowed to get it OTC from your Vet, and administer it without your vet present. 

Your oxytetracycline is nothing more than our LA200 or Biomycin (we have that here in the states, and we can get that OTC), and it's not a broad spectrum antibiotic, it's good for colds/respiratory/pneumonia issues.  I am not familiar with your other antibiotic you mentioned but I will research it and see what it is compared to the states.  Those two antibiotics you mentioned (The Oxytetracycline being one we use here and is good, the other I don't know about), isn't the only two antibiotics for goats.  Penicillin treats all and every bacteria infection..and is most used on goats as well as other livestock, and we can get that OTC as well.

It's odd because one of our Aussie members has lived in various areas and has had various Vets and still she is not able to get these med's without the Vet viewing the animal, and administering the med's for her and then leaving her with the med's to administer later on if more is needed.  One of our Aussie members, hasn't ever moved (I don't think, she hasn't ever mentioned it anyway), and she can't get it without the Vet as well.  Pink Eye med's here in the state can be gotten OTC, but you can get an eye cream from the vet as well.

I understand the "repor" you have with your vet, but in your country it's my understanding it's illegal for the vet to administer med's without seeing the animal first.  These are some really strong med's they are just handing over to you.  Even here in the states they wouldn't do that, and we're more lenient with med's here than your country is.
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~ Birdie ~
Pacqio
Guest
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 07:14:27 AM »

Your sedative that you use, is a controlled substance here in the states and can not be administered except by a Licensed Vet.  The vet must be present to administer that drug in the States.  As strict as your rules are in Aussie, It's amazing that you are allowed to get it OTC from your Vet, and administer it without your vet present. 

Well all I can tell you is that here it can be administered by someone who is not a vet.

Your oxytetracycline is nothing more than our LA200 or Biomycin (we have that here in the states, and we can get that OTC), and it's not a broad spectrum antibiotic, it's good for colds/respiratory/pneumonia issues.  I am not familiar with your other antibiotic you mentioned but I will research it and see what it is compared to the states.  Those two antibiotics you mentioned (The Oxytetracycline being one we use here and is good, the other I don't know about), isn't the only two antibiotics for goats.  Penicillin treats all and every bacteria infection..and is most used on goats as well as other livestock, and we can get that OTC as well.

I didnt say that those are the only two antibiotics for goats  ???

I said that those two are the easiest to get from the vet, for goats, and between the two you can treat almost any infection. Pen is almost useless here in production animals, most bacteria here are immune to it. Oxytet does indeed work as a very good broad spectrum antibiotic here in Australia. It is my understanding (from some good friends, cattle and goat producers in the states) that oxytet in the states is less effective than it is here, there is more resistance to oxytet in US.

Actually there are very few a/b registered for use in goats in Australia, these two are registered for goats but not labelled for goats.


It's odd because one of our Aussie members has lived in various areas and has had various Vets and still she is not able to get these med's without the Vet viewing the animal, and administering the med's for her and then leaving her with the med's to administer later on if more is needed.  One of our Aussie members, hasn't ever moved (I don't think, she hasn't ever mentioned it anyway), and she can't get it without the Vet as well.  Pink Eye med's here in the state can be gotten OTC, but you can get an eye cream from the vet as well.

Are the other aussie members going to a mainly companion animal vet, or a production animal vet? Companion animal vets tend to be reluctant to give out meds without viewing the animal, whereas production animal vets acknowledge that livestock producers do their own vetting. In my case I had to be a regular client for about 2 yrs before they would sell me meds to use at home. I get oxytet and triprim/trisoprim by the bottle and dispense as I feel it is needed. When I am out of it, I can call them to pick up more. Sometimes when treating an animal I will call the vet and ask what they think of the situation, other times if it is a simple thing I wont. I also have the rompun by the bottle, oxytocin as well.

I understand the "repor" you have with your vet, but in your country it's my understanding it's illegal for the vet to administer med's without seeing the animal first.  These are some really strong med's they are just handing over to you.  Even here in the states they wouldn't do that, and we're more lenient with med's here than your country is.

It is certainly NOT illegal in Australia for the vet to prescribe meds without seeing the animal. It is common practice. Matter of fact I was in there today to pick up more Bute, and a lady came by and picked up a bottle of Alamycin (oxytet) for treating ten steers she has with pneumonia. I was there when she rang up, spoke to the vet, then she came into town to pick up the meds, and went home to treat the calves. Actually birdie, the same thing occurs with lots of farmers in the US that can get meds from their vet when they need them, without actually hauling the animal to the vet, or the vet making a house call. I know it is common for cattle farmers in US, and to a lesser extent goat breeders (know this from my friends I mentioned above).   

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